Listen now (57 mins) | In this episode Brian and Martin are in conversation with Bethany Jarroussié. Bethany is on the design leadership team at BP and her career as a design leader has seen her take on distinctly non-design type activities. It's a conversation that covers, how, if we're honest about the nature of transformation, it can be very unpredictable, and with that comes a need to create psychological safety for teams. There are great examples of leaders who created the environments in which it's okay to learn while doing with the inevitable discomfort and at times crashes that can come with this.